At the Q/A section of tonight's talk a clear-voiced young woman quoted from the speaker's website:
"If evolution is true then somebody is on top, and by definition, everyone else is underneath. Nothing, therefore, is wrong with racism, Naziism, communism, homosexuality, abortion, the philosophies of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, etc... and all other social ills that plague our lives."
She followed with the pointed question, "where in the hell do you get off making a statement like that?!" Many in the audience applauded. It was a fine moment.
I was there on Tuesday too. First of all, as an Atheist I do not want to associated with the type that was escorted out by police. I do understand the frustration of many people who found it impossible to have a proper discussion or debate with this uneducated con-man. For me, the Steve Grohman Show was entertaining and disturbing at the same time. There were so many classic moments that night: 1. He said, "....this pulpit...I mean this podium."
2. "If you put an egg in your back yard it rots" Did he ever actually go anywhere with that one? I don't remember him offering up his own explanation for fossils.
3. The question about his credentials and his answer- none.
4. "...where the hell do you get off...."
5. The less than one second showing of the hell slide. Was that supposed to be a subliminal fear message?
6. The three girls in the middle shouting, "If you used to be a believer then you never were a believer" and then giving themselves high-fives. They were entertaining my wife and I all night with their amens and over enthusiastic nodding.
It was good to see so many people there standing up for science and reason!
Hi - I am a Christian and would like to have an open discussion with members of your group. Not necessarily to debate, but to get to know you better, as well as to understand better your thought processes and what motivates the way you think. I offer you the same in return. Doug
Here is my first question: Why do you spend most of your time trying to disprove the existence of an entity that doesn't exist? By way of example, I am pretty certain that Zeus does not exist and that this is the product of legend. However, I do not spend time trying to disprove his existence, nor do I define my philosophy as a-Zeus-ist. In fact, there are many things that do not exist, yet you don't find many people associating collectively in groups whose purpose is to disprove their existence. So why has this group of "atheists" formed, and why is your seeming purpose to constantly find ways to prove that Christianity, in particular, is a farce? It's quite interesting to me to see this play out with predictability, no matter what atheist group you encounter. You seem to put a lot of unequal weight in this effort. I haven't met many atheists who vehemently deny the god of Islam, or Buddha, or any other religious character (and no I am not stipulating that this means you believe in these characters). The effort at "disproving" always seems to be mostly focused on Jesus Christ and the teachings recorded in the Bible. If it is so easy to disprove that He exists, shouldn't you have completed this task long ago? Why do you spend your time going to things like these creation seminars if the information they present is so ludicrous? Don’t those present have big enough brains to laugh them to scorn if their data, is indeed, blatantly idiotic? Why is your presence needed at all if the data is able to invalidate them all by itself? And if the data being presented in College campuses across our country is convincing enough to withstand all other contradicting points of view, why does a defensive strategy have to be implemented to begin with? Shouldn’t the data speak for itself? Have you been to the local mosque to mock them as well? Why not? Your actions argue the point that it’s almost as if you are threatened by the teachings of Christianity, and not any other philosophy or religion. Why is this? How can you be threatened by anything that doesn’t exist? Using the argument that "Christianity" has proven to be dangerous to free thought and society and that you are, in essence, on a rescue mission to save people from the destruction of bigotry, really falls short of answering my question. Islam, I would argue, is destructive, not only openly in its teachings, but also in practice. Islam teaches of eternal damnation. Islam says there is only one way. The only difference being that Islam uses force to bring forth it's Kingdom. Christianity has been plagued with these ideologies as well from those who would hijack the original teachings of Christ, I won’t argue that. However, I would submit that this domination by force is openly overt in the original Islamic teachings and is actively practiced today in large numbers by radical fundamentalists. Wouldn't your time be better spent actively disproving and dismantling their teachings? Christians that I am good friends with are rescuing orphans and feeding the hungry. I agree, not all Christians live this way, but you don't see them strapping bombs to themselves to blow you up if you don't submit. In fact, this teaching is foreign to Christ. Christ taught peace and stated that those who chose to live by the sword would die by the sword.
Again, I ask, why do you spend your time trying to disprove something that should be so easy to disprove (in your opinion)? And, why are you not just as passionately attacking other religions that ARE dangerous? Is there some other motive that is subconscious, so buried, that you may not even be aware of its presence? I see this disproportionate behavior as a pattern among atheists and I am confused by it. I recognize the dangers of Islam, for instance, yet I don't spend my life tracking them down and debating them to show them that they believe in a lie, even though I know their teachings can be lethal. By definition, one truth exists and everything else that contradicts is false. Why not spend your time teaching what you believe that "truth" to be instead of efforts to disprove all of the rest? If you are going to use the process of elimination to prove atheism as the truth, you have a lot of work cut out for you. You have to systematically destroy everything else using your current tactics. Yet you seem to be stuck on spending all of your time and energy disproving one "falsehood". It's like a person who works at the Treasury department attempting to train their employees to spot counterfeit money by teaching them all of the thousands upon thousands of counterfeits. Wouldn't it be easier just to teach them the nature of a real dollar, so much so that anything that is counterfeit is immediately obvious? Your tactics and your motives don't seem to be optimal for the means you are after. I would suggest you try a different strategy and/or understand the nature of your motives a little better if you are going to be effective in your mission. I would suggest this is the reason why atheists only make up a small percentage of the population. It's because your methods for capturing the minds and hearts of would-be followers is anti-productive.......Or could it be that the very thing you are trying so hard to disprove is really un-disprovable? If someone tasked me with the mission of disproving what you have made the subject of your attacks, I don't think I could be successful - in fact, I would find it quite impossible and would throw my hands up in utter defeat after about five minutes. Disproving something is a much harder proposition I am afraid. What if I gave you the mission of proving that a green ping pong ball does not exist somewhere in the universe (other than the earth). Even after you searched the entire Universe in a process of elimination, you would still never really be sure that the little green ball did not exist. You could have missed it in thousands of different ways. The atheist has taken on an impossible task. I will grant you the fact that I can not definitely prove that God exists, nor can I definitively prove that Christ is the Son of God and the only way to everlasting life. Here, my friend, is the subject of faith. You, given the mission of stating to the world with certainty that "green ping pong balls do not exist anywhere in the universe" would have to make that statement based on faith, whether you admitted it or not. It is impossible to make this statement, even if you searched the known universe. So how can you state that there is NO GOD with any kind of certainty? You must be going on as much faith as I go on to make the statement that Christ is the Truth.
So again, what are your motives in all of this? It doesn't add up to me, unless you are fighting something that you, deep down, want to fight. And if that be the case, Why? Maybe it’s time to lay down your weapons and just ask why?
First of all, I talk about Islam and its dangers every day on my facebook page. And there are many other atheists who do the same.
If it seems that atheists disproportionately attack Christianity, that is because most atheists live in the US, Canada, and Europe, where Christianity (and free speech) are prevalent. It isn't because Christianity is "special."
Islam is evil, but it's "out there," for the most part. It's Christianity that knocks on my door on saturday morning and screams at me from the sidewalk preachers. It's Christianity that makes my family think I'm evil. It's Christianity that passes laws intended to restrict my freedoms. It's Christianity that muzzles science education in the schools.
If there were large groups of people who believed in Zeus and wanted this taught in school or passed laws based on it, or screamed at me about it in public, I would identify as an a-Zeusist.
Which brings me to my next part...Why do I fight for things like evolution and against creationism is the data speaks for itself? The data can only speak for itself if a person is grounded in science and isn't ignorant of it. If you keep children ignorant of the scientific method and how to use it, they aren't able to evaluate evidence properly.
Atheists lack a belief in gos. They don't say that god doesn't exist. (Most don't anyway, that's "strong atheism")
Atheists disbelieve in gods because there is no evidence. Theists claim to have evidence, but when atheists examine it, they find it nonexistent or lacking.
The burden of proof is on the people making a claim.
8 comments:
At the Q/A section of tonight's talk a clear-voiced young woman quoted from the speaker's website:
"If evolution is true then somebody is on top, and by definition, everyone else is underneath. Nothing, therefore, is wrong with racism, Naziism, communism, homosexuality, abortion, the philosophies of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, etc... and all other social ills that plague our lives."
She followed with the pointed question, "where in the hell do you get off making a statement like that?!"
Many in the audience applauded. It was a fine moment.
I was there on Tuesday too. First of all, as an Atheist I do not want to associated with the type that was escorted out by police. I do understand the frustration of many people who found it impossible to have a proper discussion or debate with this uneducated con-man.
For me, the Steve Grohman Show was entertaining and disturbing at the same time. There were so many classic moments that night:
1. He said, "....this pulpit...I mean this podium."
2. "If you put an egg in your back yard it rots" Did he ever actually go anywhere with that one? I don't remember him offering up his own explanation for fossils.
3. The question about his credentials and his answer- none.
4. "...where the hell do you get off...."
5. The less than one second showing of the hell slide. Was that supposed to be a subliminal fear message?
6. The three girls in the middle shouting, "If you used to be a believer then you never were a believer" and then giving themselves high-fives. They were entertaining my wife and I all night with their amens and over enthusiastic nodding.
It was good to see so many people there standing up for science and reason!
Hi - I am a Christian and would like to have an open discussion with members of your group. Not necessarily to debate, but to get to know you better, as well as to understand better your thought processes and what motivates the way you think. I offer you the same in return.
Doug
Well, Doug, you can join us on facebook, where we post all our events. You are also welcome to email me.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=2256119728&ref=ts
Here is my first question:
Why do you spend most of your time trying to disprove the existence of an entity that doesn't exist? By way of example, I am pretty certain that Zeus does not exist and that this is the product of legend. However, I do not spend time trying to disprove his existence, nor do I define my philosophy as a-Zeus-ist. In fact, there are many things that do not exist, yet you don't find many people associating collectively in groups whose purpose is to disprove their existence. So why has this group of "atheists" formed, and why is your seeming purpose to constantly find ways to prove that Christianity, in particular, is a farce? It's quite interesting to me to see this play out with predictability, no matter what atheist group you encounter. You seem to put a lot of unequal weight in this effort. I haven't met many atheists who vehemently deny the god of Islam, or Buddha, or any other religious character (and no I am not stipulating that this means you believe in these characters). The effort at "disproving" always seems to be mostly focused on Jesus Christ and the teachings recorded in the Bible. If it is so easy to disprove that He exists, shouldn't you have completed this task long ago? Why do you spend your time going to things like these creation seminars if the information they present is so ludicrous? Don’t those present have big enough brains to laugh them to scorn if their data, is indeed, blatantly idiotic? Why is your presence needed at all if the data is able to invalidate them all by itself? And if the data being presented in College campuses across our country is convincing enough to withstand all other contradicting points of view, why does a defensive strategy have to be implemented to begin with? Shouldn’t the data speak for itself? Have you been to the local mosque to mock them as well? Why not? Your actions argue the point that it’s almost as if you are threatened by the teachings of Christianity, and not any other philosophy or religion. Why is this? How can you be threatened by anything that doesn’t exist?
Using the argument that "Christianity" has proven to be dangerous to free thought and society and that you are, in essence, on a rescue mission to save people from the destruction of bigotry, really falls short of answering my question. Islam, I would argue, is destructive, not only openly in its teachings, but also in practice. Islam teaches of eternal damnation. Islam says there is only one way. The only difference being that Islam uses force to bring forth it's Kingdom. Christianity has been plagued with these ideologies as well from those who would hijack the original teachings of Christ, I won’t argue that. However, I would submit that this domination by force is openly overt in the original Islamic teachings and is actively practiced today in large numbers by radical fundamentalists. Wouldn't your time be better spent actively disproving and dismantling their teachings? Christians that I am good friends with are rescuing orphans and feeding the hungry. I agree, not all Christians live this way, but you don't see them strapping bombs to themselves to blow you up if you don't submit. In fact, this teaching is foreign to Christ. Christ taught peace and stated that those who chose to live by the sword would die by the sword.
Again, I ask, why do you spend your time trying to disprove something that should be so easy to disprove (in your opinion)? And, why are you not just as passionately attacking other religions that ARE dangerous? Is there some other motive that is subconscious, so buried, that you may not even be aware of its presence? I see this disproportionate behavior as a pattern among atheists and I am confused by it. I recognize the dangers of Islam, for instance, yet I don't spend my life tracking them down and debating them to show them that they believe in a lie, even though I know their teachings can be lethal. By definition, one truth exists and everything else that contradicts is false. Why not spend your time teaching what you believe that "truth" to be instead of efforts to disprove all of the rest? If you are going to use the process of elimination to prove atheism as the truth, you have a lot of work cut out for you. You have to systematically destroy everything else using your current tactics. Yet you seem to be stuck on spending all of your time and energy disproving one "falsehood". It's like a person who works at the Treasury department attempting to train their employees to spot counterfeit money by teaching them all of the thousands upon thousands of counterfeits. Wouldn't it be easier just to teach them the nature of a real dollar, so much so that anything that is counterfeit is immediately obvious? Your tactics and your motives don't seem to be optimal for the means you are after. I would suggest you try a different strategy and/or understand the nature of your motives a little better if you are going to be effective in your mission. I would suggest this is the reason why atheists only make up a small percentage of the population. It's because your methods for capturing the minds and hearts of would-be followers is anti-productive.......Or could it be that the very thing you are trying so hard to disprove is really un-disprovable? If someone tasked me with the mission of disproving what you have made the subject of your attacks, I don't think I could be successful - in fact, I would find it quite impossible and would throw my hands up in utter defeat after about five minutes. Disproving something is a much harder proposition I am afraid. What if I gave you the mission of proving that a green ping pong ball does not exist somewhere in the universe (other than the earth). Even after you searched the entire Universe in a process of elimination, you would still never really be sure that the little green ball did not exist. You could have missed it in thousands of different ways. The atheist has taken on an impossible task. I will grant you the fact that I can not definitely prove that God exists, nor can I definitively prove that Christ is the Son of God and the only way to everlasting life.
Here, my friend, is the subject of faith. You, given the mission of stating to the world with certainty that "green ping pong balls do not exist anywhere in the universe" would have to make that statement based on faith, whether you admitted it or not. It is impossible to make this statement, even if you searched the known universe. So how can you state that there is NO GOD with any kind of certainty? You must be going on as much faith as I go on to make the statement that Christ is the Truth.
So again, what are your motives in all of this? It doesn't add up to me, unless you are fighting something that you, deep down, want to fight. And if that be the case, Why? Maybe it’s time to lay down your weapons and just ask why?
Doug
Ok,
First of all, I talk about Islam and its dangers every day on my facebook page. And there are many other atheists who do the same.
If it seems that atheists disproportionately attack Christianity, that is because most atheists live in the US, Canada, and Europe, where Christianity (and free speech) are prevalent. It isn't because Christianity is "special."
Islam is evil, but it's "out there," for the most part. It's Christianity that knocks on my door on saturday morning and screams at me from the sidewalk preachers. It's Christianity that makes my family think I'm evil. It's Christianity that passes laws intended to restrict my freedoms. It's Christianity that muzzles science education in the schools.
If there were large groups of people who believed in Zeus and wanted this taught in school or passed laws based on it, or screamed at me about it in public, I would identify as an a-Zeusist.
Which brings me to my next part...Why do I fight for things like evolution and against creationism is the data speaks for itself?
The data can only speak for itself if a person is grounded in science and isn't ignorant of it. If you keep children ignorant of the scientific method and how to use it, they aren't able to evaluate evidence properly.
Oh, and atheists don't try to disprove god.
Atheists lack a belief in gos. They don't say that god doesn't exist. (Most don't anyway, that's "strong atheism")
Atheists disbelieve in gods because there is no evidence. Theists claim to have evidence, but when atheists examine it, they find it nonexistent or lacking.
The burden of proof is on the people making a claim.
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